Mr Punch. As to what extant resource is the most reliable, the idea that the validity of a tradition is equal to the degree to which it has been documented creates a

02-27-2006, 01:31 AM

As to what extant resource is the most reliable, the idea that the validity of a tradition is equal to the degree to which it has been documented creates a faulty premise:(snip)...the assumption that humans are incapable of dishonesty once they have acquired academic credentials and sponsorship.Again agreed, and since we are agreed on the inherent untrustworthiness of academic assumptions, I think you can dispense with mentioning it every post!:) Unless you feel there is something that I'm missing? I do feel there is something that you're missing: an answer to which source do you feel is the most reliable extant historical source. I agree that (Western/any) written sources are not necessarily reliable or valid, I'm just asking you for your opinion on what sources you think are the most reliable sources you have.

And,
aside from Desch-Obi's book, which sounds good and authorative despite being a written source of presumably no greater repute than any other academic source, where are you getting your information? Please note this is dfifferent to the first question.

As to the assumptions of African traditions being classed as such, it is not so much a matter of accepting, without reservation, the Africanity of a thing but, rather, a check against the Western, distorted, approach to automatically denounce/place into scrutiny the African origins of something as a matter of course. No one, for example, automatically assumes the non-French/non-European origins of Savate. Interesting assumptions there yourself. While I agree that just because something is a written academic resource doesn't make it reliable, I don't agree with your implication that ALL Western approaches are distorted. I mean, sure, in ALL Western, Eastern or African approaches there is bound to be human bias, yet you are sounding dismissive of ALL Western sources BECAUSE they are Western sources.

As to your supposition about the 'no one' assuming non-French/European origins of savate, I assumed there was an ongoing debate about it: AND I have always assumed it came from Africa, or at least somewhere other than Europe simply because of the emphasis on high kicks, which pretty much no other European art seems to share. Most of the literature I read a couple of years ago (when I last looked up the origins of savate) said the same thing. I would suggest that either there is a comprehensive movement to hide the non-European origins of savate or you are reading selectively.

Anyway, I would suggest that your assumption that no one assumes automatically that savate is not European in origin is wrong.

At the same time, I would politely suggest that as savate is only found as 'savate' in France, people are justified in assuming (rightly or wrongly) that it is European, at least until other evidence has been presented.

Furthermore, however much neither you nor I trust the nature of some of the Western-style literature, it does remain somewhat of a benchmark for evidence. If some geezer down the pub tells me savate is from Vietnam, it is not my being racist or even biased not to accept it at face value. The point of fact is that anybody who wants to make an academic assumption and back it up does the research and then publishes a paper somewhere with sources. Maybe those sources are 'some geezer down the pub' in which case they may well be dubious, and maybe those sources are 'some geezer sitting round a Masai campfire' in which case although they may well be dubious in many cases I think contrary to your assumption, they would probably be given more benefit of the doubt than 'some geezer down the pub'!

And, no, Africans did record their histories, traditions, etc. in their scripts.OK. But are you talking about recording history or recording legend? Admittedly the dividing line is sometimes moot. In Northern Europe we have the Sagas for example which have some very important information about the writers' culture and way of life and some historical events. But they also have stories about fights with barrow-wights and ogres. These are rightly treated as legend, not history. Anyway, I'm just asking out of interest, not trying to trip you up.

Thank you.

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