Danmyete. As to what extant resource is the most reliable, the idea that the validity of a tradition is equal to the degree to which it has been documented creates a

02-21-2006, 05:11 PM

Greetings Mat,

Thanks for the reply.

As to what extant resource is the most reliable, the idea that the validity of a tradition is equal to the degree to which it has been documented creates a faulty premise: that being things only exist, or come into being, upon the establishment of some form of textual reference.

Things come into being, however, when they come into being, whether or not we are made privy to this fact or not. In essence, currently, there is no extant methodology to accurately record anything, since any of the present methodologies requires the assumption that humans are incapable of dishonesty once they have acquired academic credentials and sponsorship.

As to the assumptions of African traditions being classed as such, it is not so much a matter of accepting, without reservation, the Africanity of a thing but, rather, a check against the Western, distorted, approach to automatically denounce/place into scrutiny the African origins of something as a matter of course. No one, for example, automatically assumes the non-French/non-European origins of Savate. Yet some of these same individuals do not hesitate to "meditate" on the "supposed" African origins of Capoeira.

As to who said what, it was actually Tvebak who raised the question of Tae Kyon realtive to Ladja and the African origins of Capoeira, not Mickey. Eddie has also weighed in on the Africaness of the things discussed herein. So my comments have been rightfully addressed to him as well.

As to laying claims to things, if memory serves me correctly, I said that it was my opinion that the Swastika has its origins in Africa. No where did I say this was verified fact. This is not the same thing as textual sources, being passed of as academically sound, making bold claims about "non-literate" African "oral" traditions or the "non-African" origins of Capoeira (as does the text on Capoeira entitled "Ring Of Liberation," for example).

No where did I say that to disagree with me means that you are twisted, etc. Distorting African history, which is exactly what I was referencing, is twisted. If any individual engages in this practice, then he/she is individually twisted. I do not recall calling you twisted, so your point is without basis here.

The Swastika has been found as part ancient African Saharan traditions, at a time when Africans roamed the area when it was closer, in appearance to the savanna areas to the south. It is linked to the Akan Gold weights, which also feature this symbol, and the African script of which this symbol is a part has been noted in a book by an African scholar whose name now escapes me but whose book was reviewed in Dr. Ivan Van Sertima's Black's In Science text on African indigenous sciences, etc. I shall dig up the name. This was partially the basis for my OPINION.

As to contemporary Western boxing, I have seen no evidence of the bobbing and weaving, more elusive footwork being an initial part of the pre-African involvement variant we have come to presently class as boxing. The bobbing and weaving and elaborate feigning are also found in American Football as the stutter step, Jukin', etc. The trickiness in combat, in the African context, as scene in Capoeira, Danmye, Mani, et al, was carried over into the latter sporting traditions in which Africans/African-Diasporans became involved.

And, no, Africans did record their histories, traditions, etc. in their scripts.

Thanks for the discourse.

Eddie

02-25-2006, 11:18 AM

Polka has distinct characteristics which can give clues to the origin, as well as documented history and musical influence. My idea of break dancing, is your typical B Boy style, allot of ground work combined with allot of acrobatic work. I mentioned in the other forum that Capoeria Angola is probably closer to African tradition than others, but what I see as Capoeira Angola being done here is much different to the Capoeira Angola elsewhere. I’m talking posture mostly.

African dancing very seldom goes down to the ground in the way that break dancers (and Angola) would do, and typical B Boy would focus allot on posture and form, where as in African traditional culture, posture and form is seen and used in a different manner. Legs are almost always bend with a very distinct emphasis on hip movements. Most importantly, a very deep emphasis on the “ African rhythm” (its all in the bum they say).

Modern African dancing such as Pantsula and Kwasa Kwasa all have those characteristics, and one can clearly see those are from African decent. Although, if we do have to get racial here, the black kids seem to pick up break dancing much quicker than the white kids, I get the feeling it has much more to do with cultural inhibitions than anything else. We always joke about the African rhythm down here (black and white people alike all joke around saying white men can dance), but if we are honest with ourselves, physiologically we are all the same. Doubt there is a Rhythm gene or chromosome in our bodies.

Careful not to assume that all white people in South Africa are racists. Racism has very little to do with ethnicity, I say it has more to do with insecurities, and it knows no boundaries. The biggest racists I know are discriminating between their own ethnic groups. I read allot of racism in danmayets posts, whether or not it was intentional is irrelevant. I suppose its part of our human nature, and we’d all be lying to argue this. Having said that, I am probably one of the most racial tolerant persons you will ever know, my comments about Break dancing not being from Africa has little to do with African Intelligence or anything like what you may suggest. Its more of a patroitical statement than anything else I guess, so we should nor mistake everything for racism. If we are secure enough about our selves, and we accept and acknowledge our own strengths and weaknesses, we probably would never shout racism to begin with.

Traditional African fighting arts could not have been structured in the same way as Asian martial arts have been. There are way too many cultural obstacles for that. Also, traditions was handed down orally; mostly though song and dance. Having said that, I never claimed that African fighting arts did not exist, I also never claimed the effectiveness of them either. I did tell you to look at systems such as the Piper system and I even gave clues to other styles.

In the same way that Chinese Martial Arts may follow mythical traditions and forms such as dragon, panther and tiger, African arts would probably follow the mindset of a snake. Sneakiness – would probably be the keyword here, and that is what makes those arts effective.

One can clearly see the influence of African Culture on African fighting when you look at the style that most modern African boxers (pro boxing) take on. I am not referring to Ali or Lewes or Tyson, refer to fighters such as Cassius Balloy and Baby Jake, or Dingaan Tobela. If you look at their fighting manner, you might get a clue to the rhythm I am referring to.

With all of my posts I have never denied the existence or effectiveness of African fighting arts or African traditions. On the contrary. You should also investigate a “ style” called ‘ form style’. Its something that is being used by African street kids, mostly in the Cape Town area. Again it has allot to do with rhythm, and everything to do with sneakiness. In conclusion, African fighting is much like JKD (and mixed martial arts). You fight to win, Noma Kanjani (no matter what). Pretty much what we all say, innit?

Eddie

02-25-2006, 11:27 AM

Greetings Mat,
As to contemporary Western boxing, I have seen no evidence of the bobbing and weaving, more elusive footwork being an initial part of the pre-African involvement variant we have come to presently class as boxing. The bobbing and weaving and elaborate feigning are also found in American Football as the stutter step, Jukin', etc. The trickiness in combat, in the African context, as scene in Capoeira, Danmye, Mani, et al, was carried over into the latter sporting traditions in which Africans/African-Diasporans became involved.

And, no, Africans did record their histories, traditions, etc. in their scripts.

Thanks for the discourse.

Bobbing and weaving is very much part of African fighting strategy. Perhaps not as refined as what we see in modern boxing, refer to my cultural inhibitions note, but it is probably one of the key elements in African combat forms. If you look at systems such as Piper and “ Form style”, you will note the importance of this.

Which African scripts are you referring to? Which language did they use? Please can you post a link to info on that matter for me?

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