Female Solipsism

Posted on September 18, 2012 by Dalrock

http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/female-solipsism/

Vox Day responds to Susan Walsh’s skepticism of female solipsism in his current post at Alpha Game. Susan poses the question:

What evidence can you offer that “female solipsism” is not just another manosphere circle jerk?

A bit later she elaborates:

I have made a habit of digging into the source of certain claims in the ‘sphere, and what I usually find is a complete absence of intellectual rigor. Instead, there is a sort of high-fiving among male bloggers on principles that are completely unsubstantiated.

Unless someone can offer me some rational explanation for saying that women are especially solipsistic, I don’t accept it.

I can empathize with Susan wanting to see hard data on this, and I would be very interested in seeing a rigorous study on this question. Unfortunately I’m not aware of any, and a quick web search didn’t help. If you know of one, please share it. Susan, Vox, and I will all be in your debt.

I see two areas where female solipsism is most obvious. The first is the tendency of women to think anything being discussed is about them personally. This can be truly ridiculous, as occurred in an exchange between my wife and another woman a few years ago at a gathering of Christian mothers. My wife mentioned reading about a school assigning inappropriate books to middle schoolers, and the other mother was very concerned about this until my wife mentioned one of the titles. It was The Electric Koolaid Acid Test, and when my wife mentioned the title the woman became very upset and said:

But I read that in college!

The woman responded emotionally as if my wife was judging her for having read the book years ago (how could my wife even have known?), and physically recoiled away from my wife. She simply couldn’t process that it wasn’t about what she personally had read 20 years ago in college and was about what schools were assigning to Jr High students today. This was in a group of women who filtered everything through whether it was “Christian” enough. Once a field trip to the local opera was discussed and deemed inappropriate because the opera didn’t have an explicitly Christian message.

The other example I see very often is the amazing lack of empathy women have for men. I’ll use an example many here are familiar with. No fault divorce and the accompanying family court process is designed to punish men who egregiously break their marriage vows. Academics admit that it is designed as a punishment for men meant to be used as athreatpoint to give wives power. Women acknowledge this at one level, because whenever a husband misbehaves the instant chorus is Take his kids and his money. That will teach him! Yet when men point out how unfair this is given that the system treats all men as if they abused/abandoned/cheated, women want proof that this isn’t fair. They can’t understand that a system which always punishes a man as if he committed something egregious is inherently unfair. Because of this, they demand proof that the amount of child support is excessive, and that the men complaining about the process don’t really deserve to be punished.

This is especially noteworthy given the differing opportunities for men and women to commit divorce theft and how our society has responded. Everyone knows the male version: Use up her youth and then divorce her and marry a younger woman. Alternately he could take on a mistress when his wife is older, making his wife the one to file for divorce. Either way the wife is most vulnerable when she is older and her husband’s SMV/MMV is relatively higher. The preferred model for women is to use a man for status (get the wedding), legitimacy (get knocked up within wedlock), and early parenting help (get the kids weaned and out of diapers), and then kick him out to collect cash and prizes while she is still young and attractive.

Given the differing strategies for men and women to commit divorce theft the timing of divorce tells us much about who is really sticking it to whom. If men are sticking it to women, we we would expect divorce rates to rise as wives entered and passed middle age. If women are sticking it to men, we would expect divorce rates to be highest when the wife has the best remarriage opportunities and to drop with her chances to remarry. We might even see a spike in divorce 5-10 years after the wedding, leaving just enough time to get junior born and out of diapers. If both men and women are sticking it to each other, we would expect to see indications of both patterns, with divorce rates dropping through a woman’s thirties before climbing again starting around age 40 or so.

The actual stats in the US and UK show that divorce is highest when the wife is young and declines the older the wife gets. Women are clearly taking advantage of their opportunity to commit divorce theft in large numbers, but almost no men are. Looking at the UK historical data, while divorce rates have exploded across the board this age based pattern was as true in the 1960s as it is today:

A somewhat different data pull demonstrates the same basic pattern for the US. While the US data in the chart below includes marriages ending due to death of the wife as well as divorce and doesn’t show the age of wife, obviously the wives are getting older as the marriage progresses (see this post for a full explanation of the chart):

Note that in the US marriage endings are most common in the second five year period. This leaves just enough time to have the kids, get them weaned and out of diapers, and discover she isn’t haaapy while she still has as much of her youth as possible. We see a similar bump in the UK divorce rate data by age above, although US divorce rates by agedrop continuously both now and in 1990.

Putting this in perspective, women complained about men committing divorce theft (trading an older wife in for a younger model). Even though statistically it was extremely rare, men empathized and reworked the entire divorce process to counter just that risk. Now that men are being brutalized by that process with great regularity men are complaining to women. But women in general don’t care; if you raise the issue, all they can think of is how a man might one day do something to them. They respond emotionally,demanding proof that the men being punished don’t deserve it:

Provide stats for this or shut up. Men cheat more than women do. How do you account for that in divorces initiated by women? He breaks the contract, she files. Sounds fair to me. Yes, there are frivolous divorces, but I’d like to know what percentage of female-initiated divorces they are. I think this theme is exaggerated and overblown in the manosphere echo chamber.

254 Responses to Female Solipsism

1. DC Al Fine says:

September 18, 2012 at 8:02 pm

“Provide stats for this or shut up… Men cheat more than women do”

Is it just me or are women’s attention spans getting shorter and shorter?

2. Jason says:

September 18, 2012 at 8:12 pm

Interesting article Dalrock. Thanks for posting. That is a fascinating observation. Women think in terms of how something will effect them.

Those divorce stats are interesting as well.

In answer to the last little bit, “Men cheat more than women do. How do you account for that in divorces initiated by women? He breaks the contract, she files. Sounds fair to me. Yes, there are frivolous divorces, but I’d like to know what percentage of female-initiated divorces they are.”

Actually i’d be fascinated to see data broken down like that as well, along with data showing how regular sex is prior to the man cheating and so on. I suspect the data would be impossible to gather, but it would make an interesting test of “manospheric” contentions. I guess i’d really just like to see comprehensive divorce data and the reasons for the divorce that are probably lost due to no fault laws.

An unrelated thought. Does data exist on pre no-fault reasons for divorce and how does that shake out?

3. Nathan S. says:

September 18, 2012 at 8:24 pm

Actually, to correct Susan, women cheat more than men do. They’re just better at lying about it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1211104/Think-men-unfaithful-sex-A-study-shows-WOMEN-biggest-cheats–theyre-just-better-lying-it.html

4. okrahead says:

September 18, 2012 at 8:24 pm

Perhaps a better case could be made for narcissism than solipsism. Solipsism would have a woman denying the existence of anyone other than herself. Womyn may act as if men are inconsequential; they do, however, at least acknowledge men’s existence in their desire to punish men and obtain cash and prizes from men.
Narcissism, conversely, would explain much of what goes on here.
1) Unrealistic views of one’s own value in the SMP/MMP. The hamster is the perfect narcissist. It believes in its own beauty despite a BMI of 666 and razor stubble for a hair style. This belief is reinforced by other hamsters, all of whom engage in mutual assurances of beauty, each knowing that it is lying to the others, yet somehow self-assured the others are being truthful to it. Pure, unadulterated narcissism.
2) Sees others only as useful tools for its own pleasure. Deep in its dark little heart the hamster knows what it is doing is wrong… but it doesn’t matter, for the end justifies the means. It knows that the havoc wreaked not only upon its spouse, but also upon its own offspring is brutal… yet the hamster will find a way to justify its violence against its own kith and kin. Why? For the sake of its own “happiness,” however that may be defined at the moment.
3) A failure (often willful) to perceive the long term consequences of current actions upon either others or itself. The hamster cannot be bothered to consider either the poorer circumstances or even physical danger to which it exposes its own offspring. The hamster, in its unrealistic belief that the SMP/MMP sees no difference between a HB8 25yo and a BMI 666 40yo fails to consider its own impending spinsterhood as it wreaks its nest. Failure to consider long term ramifications of one’s actions on oneself and others is another classical sign of narcissism.
Well, I’ve hijacked the thread long enough, perhaps some lolz would now be in order.
Cordially,

Okrahead

5. Jason says:

September 18, 2012 at 8:30 pm

@Okrahead,

Alphagame noted this in their comment that Dalrock is mentioning. I think he made a good case for the appropriateness of the world solipsism.

http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/susan-challenges-concept.html

6. John2.0 says:

September 18, 2012 at 8:33 pm

Well my own anecdotal evidence from my family and friends is that within the 30-40 age group, women seem to be having affairs like mad, my stats from 16 divorced couples:
Female initiated separation\divorce 88%(14), of those 79%(11) females were having affairs., only 1 male was.

Seems mostly the bored\ unfulfilled wifey syndrome I think, most marriages probably had hit a major downturn anyway, with the men buried in work, and the women searching for fulfilment\better life somewhere else I guess.

I would say all the men came off pretty badly (emotionally and financially), the women seemingly launched themselves into a ‘new life’ within a matter of hours of the event taking place minus all regret.

I really wonder why it is seems far more difficult for men to recover and move on even emotionally, the elusive female solipsism I wonder??

7. MT459 says:

September 18, 2012 at 8:55 pm

Case study for those of you in long term relationships/marriages.

Tell your SO that you should trade off saying the favorite things that you like about each other. I guarantee you that virtually all females will fall into the trap of “I like how you make me feel….(insert emotion)” or “I like how you …(insert action), it makes me feel ….(insert emotion)”

Rarely will you get a serious answer that will be a physical answer (i.e. “I like your penis..LOL!”) or one that actually is a compliment about you. It will almost always be about how you make her FEEL.

Note: I don’t reccomend beating yourself up over this or getting angry. It’s just in their nature and western society is awful at opening a xx’s eyes to seeing anything outside of themselves. The vast majority of females are and will be emotionally stunted, narcisstic beings. You can hate and be angry or adjust and not let it bother you (i.e. use game).

8. Cane Caldo says:

September 18, 2012 at 8:56 pm

@Okrahead

It seems to me that low levels of the Dark Triad traits are indistinguishable from solipsism.

9. Shameful says:

September 18, 2012 at 9:05 pm

Using logic, facts, and reason in an arguement with women is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. And some women doesnt see the problem, so what? Women are so pedalised and protected in society it’s farcical. We can’t prove any thing to them, the hamster is to powerful. What can be done, and what i’m glad Dalrock and others are doing is showing men, young and old, the nature of the beast and the dangers facing men today. Game or MGTOW, just don’t engage them in the way they want to play.

10. Jim says:

September 18, 2012 at 9:25 pm

Just wanna hide.

11. an observer says:

September 18, 2012 at 9:44 pm

Where is Detis hamsterlator?

12. Bob Wallace says:

September 18, 2012 at 9:57 pm

I don’t understand why people are trying to use the word “solipsism” when they mean narcissism. Maybe we should use older terms – “selfish and irresponsible.”

Narcissism is extreme self-interest, lack of empathy, inability to understand that another person exists in their own right.

I am also puzzled why some people speak of the “Dark Triad” as in some way being admirable for men, whereas when women show it, it devastates relationships. There are very popular sites, such as Shrink4men and Dr. Helen, which counsel men whose lives have been badly damaged by being involved with these Dark Triad women. So I can only conclude men who shows these traits are incapable of having a long-term relationship with a woman.

I’ve had people tell me, how, that’s how men have sex with lots of women, because so many women are supposedly attracted to these men. As if the being a narcissistic predator is a recipe for a good life. even if a fair number of women are attracted to them.

13. The Continental Op says:

September 18, 2012 at 9:57 pm

Susan Walsh: “Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?”

14. Anonymous Reader says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:15 pm

The posting by Walsh is in and of itself is an example of solipsism.
Therefore, the simplest demonstration of “female soiipsism” for Walsh can be found in the nearest mirror.

15. Alpha Mission says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:19 pm

Narcissism is seeing the world as it is and seeing yourself greater than you are in it. Solipsism is seeing yourself as you are, but seeing the world around you as being much lower than it is. To a narcissist, the people around him are who they are, he is just better than them. To the solipsist, she is a normal person with thoughts and feelings, while the people around her are merely characters, not full fledged, thinking and human, as she is. Solipsism as viewed this way explains also why male strippers who play a character make more money than those who don’t. Surely a solipsistic woman doesn’t intellectually recognize that she believes that she is the only mind in existence, and that no one else has really thoughts and feeling but her, but she doesn’t have to. She just lives lives that way. She doesn’t care about your thoughts and feelings, because you’re just a character, not a person.

16. CedarFever says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:22 pm

John2.0: “…the women seemingly launched themselves into a ‘new life’ within a matter of hours of the event taking place minus all regret.”

I have a middle-aged female acquaintance that dumped her hubby because she wasn’t haaaaaapppy. She bought a new car and had vanity plates that said that – almost verbatim. I swear, she is a walking cliche of just about every hyperagamous trait discussed in the manosphere.

17. Looking Glass says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:24 pm

I imagine the way to “prove” this point (though Susan probably wouldn’t accept a historically valid “preponderance of evidence” standard, which makes this really a pointless exercise) is to show women accept the Apex Fallacy more readily than men. Which might actually exist in the social research data. Since that’s what is really meant by the “solipsistic” nature of women: the general inability to see things outside of their own direct view. Which is a bit more than just being narcissistic. You can be blind to the plight of others yet not be narcissistic about life.

I think Reality TV can be used as conclusive proof of the Rationalization Hamster existing, so that also might be a place to start.

18. Bob Wallace says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:33 pm

@ Alpha Mission,

“Narcissism is seeing the world as it is and seeing yourself greater than you are in it. Solipsism is seeing yourself as you are, but seeing the world around you as being much lower than it is. To a narcissist, the people around him are who they are, he is just better than them. To the solipsist, she is a normal person with thoughts and feelings, while the people around her are merely characters, not full fledged, thinking and human, as she is.”

Narcissists are incapable of seeing reality clearly, which is why it’s a mental illness – Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Solipsism is a philosophic position, related to subjective idealism. Confusing solipsism with narcissism is going to do nothing but confuse people.

Narcissists see people as things. An extreme narcissist is a psychopath, who don’t see people as human at all. The worst psychopaths are the sexual/sadistic serial killers.

Trying to alter definitions and come up with new ones to replace older, accepted ones is the sign of a cult.

19. Twenty says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:38 pm

If you’re going to deny that your sex is solipsistic, it’s best to do it without referencing yourself 4 times in 3 sentences while implicitly setting up what you “accept” as some sort of standard that anyone else should care about.

20. sunshinemary says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:50 pm

A question about female solipsism – for the moment, let us accept that women are at this time quite solipsistic. Why are they so? Is this a modern tendency born of the self-esteem movement? Is it another evil consequence of feminism? Is it how God (or evolution if you prefer) created women? If it’s the last one, then we should just note that women are hard-wired this way without getting upset about it (“It is what it is” – one of my least favorite sayings, but maybe it fits here). If it’s one of the first two, then it’s worth getting in a bother about.

21. BC says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:51 pm

not just another manosphere circle jerk?

And the definition of a “manosphere circle jerk” is? Anything Giggles does not agree with. After all, she “has her own truth, and we have no right to judge it.”

Unless someone can offer me some rational explanation for saying that women are especially solipsistic, I don’t accept it.

This is duplicity at its best, as it has been repeatedly shown that Giggles attacks and then bans anyone who persists in giving a rational explanation to something that upsets her echo chamber of that she personally doesn’t want to accept.

As for proof of gender-based solipsism, I suggest looking at voting statistics: In general, men tend to vote for justice/principle, even when it disadvantages them, and women tend to vote for ‘fairness’ or ‘equality of outcome’, especially when it advantages them. Single women tend to vote for the state and socialism as protector and provider of resources they don’t have or have difficulty getting on their own, whereas women married to providers tend to vote conservatively to protect the resources they already have within their grasp.

Translation: It’s all about them.

22. unger says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:56 pm

SSM: Fourth option: Is it part of women’s corruption by the Fall?

23. Jason says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:57 pm

@sunshinemary,

At a guess i’d say it is all three. Although i’d contend that the observation that many modern women are “basically feral” is quite accurate. This just seems to be an outworking of that feralness.

Women do seem to be more “feeling” and “relationship” oriented. I agree that they are made that way. But what we see with this observation about solipsism in many women is that natural and even beneficial tendency going wildly off the rails as the negative aspects of it are indulged and encouraged.

Is it really a surprise that decades of “you are a special little princess”, “you can do anything you want” and all the rest of it has resulted in raising a generation who believe this drivel and the ludicrous entitlement mentality (which is what the whole “i’m not haaaaapy” thing amounts too) it fosters?

The guys are probably not as bad mainly because it is not fed to them as strongly.

24. aneroidocean says:

September 18, 2012 at 10:59 pm

One of the most horrific things about divorce courts when it pertains to children, is that the parent whom child support funds are allocated to, has zero accountability to actually use those funds for the children.

25. Jason says:

September 18, 2012 at 11:13 pm

@aneroidocean,

That is lunacy isn’t it. I am watching my sister and he husband have to put up with this idiocy right now with his bat shit crazy ex-wife. Why is it unreasonable to expect the women to actually show how they spend the child support if requested and demonstrate that it is used accordingly.

26. Steve Canyon says:

September 18, 2012 at 11:29 pm

You could provide all the stats and data you want, it will do absolutely nothing to sway female opinion as it isn’t emotional. Women make up more than half the collegiate population, yet any attempt to enact affirmative-action style measures to increase the male population is met with extreme resistence. There’s hard data that backs that up, yet, it has done nothing to sway female and feminists to the side that men aren’t fairly represented in the educational system despite the fact that similar arguments were made in the late 60′s to “prove” discrimination against women in that same educational system.

Like anything else, hard data is evidence that females use only when it supports her position, and is discarded and riddiculed when it does not.

27. Höllenhund says:

September 18, 2012 at 11:43 pm

I have my own truth, and you have no right to judge it as a lie, because you don’t know what it is.

dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/is-frivolous-divorce-overstated-in-the-manosphere/#comment-25925

28. Mark Minter says:

September 18, 2012 at 11:59 pm

There are numerous examples of this besides just divorce. When I was in college I took this class called “Sex Roles”. It should have called Gender Roles. But no guys would have mistakenly enrolled in it like I did. It could have called “Why men suck”.

The first section of the course was about Purdah, the Islamic sequestration of women. It was very apt and pertinent in a class at the University of Texas with a bunch of coeds who had never experienced anything other than having their asses kissed by their fathers and all men in their life and had never so much as experienced any prejudicial treatment other than some construction workers hollering “Hey baby” at them when they walked past. But it set the tone for the rest of the semester. Men are fuckers unless women fight back.

The next section was about division of labor in the home. The professor, Doctor Susan Fletcher, how looked very similar to Elizabeth Warren, the candidate for Senate in Mass., divided a large blackboard board into halves. She listed Women on one side and Men on the other and commenced to write all these tasks, laundry, cooking, child care, cleaning, shopping, driving, on and on. She filled the board. Then eventually she went to the side for the Men and wrote “Outdoor cooking” meaning BBQ. A ooooohhhh went through the girls. The men in the room kept shooting up their hands saying “My dad wasn’t like that. He did X and Y and Z.” And Doctor Susan Fletcher would say “Despite your local situation, EMPERICAL EVIDENCE shows X and Y”. So one could have inferred that men that were successful enough to have sent their sons to college, to have participated in the preparation, to have earned enough money to pay for it, to have developed sons with the character to gain entrance to one of the most difficult universities in the nation were NOT LIKE THAT. But all men had to be painted with the same brush. They all had to be burned at the same stake. That all wives had to go into marriage with this same preconception that men just didn’t carry there load and this lazy scum she was married to was just like all the other men. He could work 50 hours a week at a vicious, competitive, mentally taxing job (making much more money that her with associated stress with it), commute for 10 hours, aid with child care, shopping on the weekends, and various other activities in conjunction with running a house, but she had a preconception that men weren’t doing enough because he didn’t jump right in to her definition of what should be done. There was s recent Time article recanting this, claiming that men do their part, and still that New York Times post-wall chick that Roissy is at war with, Hannah Rosin, had a recent commentary, one of those same Men are lazy slackers that don’t do their part. Fifty studies could come out refuting this old claim and one post-wall yentah can send them all to the trash in the minds of women.

The next section in the class had to do with Battering with stat upon stat about violent men. I personally have never known a man who was even close to being someone like the men, the jealous, possessive, controlling men that beat their wives. I have know couples that had a violent fight once. I have know couples where she was consistently violent towards him and one time he retaliated but I have never known a couple where the woman went around consistently abused by the man. Other people might but I never did. Not one. Maybe it is the circles I live among. But according to that Gender Roles class and the behavior of the police when they come in the house, all men are violent abusers. And all men should be treated in the same manner, all have their dignity and rights stripped merely because the woman placed a call, no matter how vindictive, how false her reasons were for making the call.

My sister is an evangelical and you want to see solipsism at work, circular logic, rationalization, just bring up any of these topics. She will immediately turn a statement that is general and backed by statistics into her own particular situation and disavow anything that differs from her own experience. She truly will cite the general case, the femcentric view, literally something like saying “These man are leaving their wives for younger models” even though she has living proof in front her eyes, (Me), that something different is going on. When you force her into a corner, she just says “I don’t want to talk about this any longer”.

Mens rights will never be won at the ballot box. It will only possibly, and I say remotely possibly with a miniscule possibility, in court decisions much like Civil Rights. Any man that would stand up and speak is immediately branded a “Loser, bitter man, who no one wants and are not real men”. Even in the manosphere, Mens Rights are vilified as whiners, crybabies. I even do it. I often say accept reality, learn game, pump women, dump women. Teach young boys the truth. Avoid women and be happy. This die is cast and there is nothing can than be done. All the women and half the men are against you. Accept that the postmodern is here and live within the new reality.

Get it through your head. You can’t win this war. Read Dalrock to learn the truth, but read Roosh to learn how to deal with it. The PostModern is here already. Get on the winning side or else you will be on the losing. Never marry, Pump them, dump them, leave them.

29. Grit says:

September 19, 2012 at 12:04 am

@sunshinemary

Search wikipedia for “Scold’s Bridle” – women were forced to wear masks that pinned their tongue. Why? Gossip. Circa 1500s.

I would argue that solipsism has always existed (gossip is a sin in the bible circa 200ad), but men have retired completely from trying to control it, hence the explosion.

I love this point in the argument because women are prone to think, “See! Its not my fault. I’m born that way! Blame men for not controlling me!” Hence proving the level of solipsism.

30. Alpha Mission says:

September 19, 2012 at 12:30 am

@Bob, the reason extreme narcissism is declared mental illness and extreme solipsism is not, is because narcissism is masculine, and its perpetrators are guilty of the ultimate modern sin: being male.

31. David Collard says:

September 19, 2012 at 12:51 am

“manosphere circle jerk”

Ah, yes, the classy, ladylike American woman. A byword around the world.

32. TFH says:

September 19, 2012 at 1:09 am

Evidence of Solipism:

Ferdinand Bardamu did a detailed article pointing to tons of examples of female solipism, and titled the article ‘the Eternal Solipism of the Female Mind’. Too bad he deleted his archive.

Where is Ferdinand Bardamu when you need him.

But for further proof, consider this:

1) Almost no woman has ever written a book that contains good advice for a man on how to succeed with women (Game). Just about every book written by women on this subject is horribly wrong.

2) The 20-year-old book ‘The Rules’, seen by many women as the bible of how women can get the man they want, is extremely solipistic. It is indeed a decent guide for a MAN to use on how to succeed with women, but for a woman to follow such advice (be cocky and dominant, etc.) would be an abysmal failure.

3) Almost no women grasps Game well enough to discuss it intelligently. This means that extremely few women can discuss female psychology with the necessary detachment to do so competently. Just like a child is not capable of writing a textbook on child psychology, a woman has no grasp of female psychology.

33. TFH says:

September 19, 2012 at 1:18 am

Dalrock,

The other example I see very often is the amazing lack of empathy women have for men.

When most of the men of a society can die and still not impact the number of babies being born, whereas any (young) woman dying immediately reduces the number of babies that can be born, that makes an individual man extremely expendable relative to the individual woman.

That is why women having the right to vote does not work. Almost no woman has any problem taking X benefit for herself if it involves inflicting 10X damage onto men.

People who eat steak don’t think that much about the suffering of cattle. Assume that female interest in male suffering is about at the same level.

One final point: Susan Walsh’s tone is identical to that of Mrs. Darwin, who also haughtily declared that the androsphere ‘has no intellectual rigor’, under the presumption that she is a deep thinker of some sort. Same here. We have no obligation to appease these women… rather, the burden of proving themselves to be competent thinkers falls on them.

34. TFH says:

September 19, 2012 at 1:21 am

Again, the premier piece of evidence that women are solipistic is that none of them can even discuss or describe Game with enough sophistication as to demonstrate true knowledge of it.

Could you *ever* envision a woman knows enough about Game to teach a novice man about it? Other than one or two women, I have never, ever seen a woman come close to even remotely comprehending Game.

Any more than a child can instruct an adult about adult matters.

35. I Art Laughing says:

September 19, 2012 at 1:29 am

I know it’s not scientific, but the Serpent’s promise to Eve was for her to be the center of her own existence (to be like God). This was the temptation of Eve, not of Adam. Adam’s temptation was to follow Eve in her solipsism. Look at the world and realize the truth of the Bible in this regard.

36. Ras Al Ghul says:

September 19, 2012 at 2:31 am

A tangent here, but have you noticed how kid glove Vox is when he disagrees with giggles? (as he did on this topic of alpha game)

A direct quote of Vox: “And, given the current state of hostilities on the part of various parties, I should underline that this is not a criticism of Susan, but rather a defense of an articulated concept. One need not always agree with someone to respect and be on good terms with them.”

He regularly states when he is disagreeing with her, that he “still respects her” or some other nonsense. I have never noticed that kind of treatment for anyone else.

It makes me wonder if the “cruelty artist” is trying to prevent the inevitable “break up” between the two of them that regularly occurs between giggles and the men that get involved with the Queen of the HUSsies.

It almost looks like beta appeasement.

37. Alpha Mission says:

September 19, 2012 at 2:43 am

Actually TFH I do know one from the past. Ninon De l’ Enclos.

38. BC says:

September 19, 2012 at 2:48 am

TFH: People who eat steak don’t think that much about the suffering of cattle. Assume that female interest in male suffering is about at the same level.

Gold

39. AnonymousManosphereBlogger says:

September 19, 2012 at 3:05 am

The concept of solipsism became completely clear to me while attending my grandfather’s funeral.

My uncle’s eulogy was all about how great of a father, husband, golfer, career man and was well liked and well respected by most who knew him.

My aunt’s eulogy was all about she had loved him, and was really greatful that she had a chance to travel and spend a lot of time with him in his last year of life, and how she had great conversations with him and how she never really knew him her entire life until she spent all that time with him as he was slowly dying. She regretted all that lost time and wished she had spent more time with him when he was younger.

Now replace all the “she’s” in my last paragraph with “I’s”, and that was essentially her eulogy, mixed in with tears at the appropriate moments.

“My biggest regret was that I never spent that much time with him when he was younger and I was so busy with my own family…”

I was sitting in the front pews of the church during the funeral, and I was grieving and mournful….and listening to her self-absorbed eulogy made me laugh inside. I remember thinking to myself: “Now THIS is what the eternal solipsism of the female mind looks like!”

40. TFH says:

September 19, 2012 at 3:37 am

Actually TFH I do know one from the past. Ninon De l’ Enclos.

Okay, one. Name two more……

They are about as rare as child supergeniuses.

41. greenlander says:

September 19, 2012 at 3:39 am

The comment from Alpha Game by the commenter Heh was right on the money:

Female solipsist denies the validity of the viewpoint that females are solipsistic…

42. patrick says:

September 19, 2012 at 3:43 am

Lots of female bashing lately in the man-o-sphere.
“Women can’t handle rejection well” and “women don’t have sexual self control” at the Chateau, “Women are not independet” at Paradigm Shift, “She’s not happy”, “Hamster of the month” and “You just can’t argue with broads and gods” at UMan, the readers cheering along in the comments.
Seems like there is still a lot of bitterness. Get over it guys.

43. Opus says:

September 19, 2012 at 3:52 am

I suspect that Susan Walsh is merely angry that she could never be part of a male ‘jerk circle’ – unless she was the centre of attention – which would then be something rather different. I believe I smell a not particularily rational hamster.

44. collapseofman says:

September 19, 2012 at 3:54 am

When adam carolla (sic) got the evil eye from the msm, some female blogger did a great response about why women actually are not funny. Her post involved comparing 10 male and 10 female comedians, then analyzing their subject matter. Men ran the full gamut; women talked about themselves for 9/10 jokes. Not science, but it’s a start.

45. collapseofman says:

September 19, 2012 at 3:56 am

Have seen it and it wouldn’t confirm your argument if I hadnt.

46. Mark Minter says:

September 19, 2012 at 4:03 am

I was outside and I just got to thinking about the woman that thinks all the conclusions reached by men have no basis and we all just hear one and high five each other. They continue to write off all conclusions, even when backed by data like this one, as the male version of “Just so” stories.

I have used this metaphor until I am bored with it, but it holds true for me and probably others.

The writings on this blog and the other key Men’s blogs strike a chord with men because they resonate and explain experience common to many.

It is like the Law of Gravity. All your life you see things fall. You know that things can remain higher than the ground if you provide ample support. You can even come to a rough approximation and understanding of the rate of acceleration of gravity. Then when you take a physics class and have the Law of Gravity quantified and explained from an academic nature then you naturally accept and further understand the nature of gravity. No one need “prove” gravity to you. You have experienced it; you have seen it, and even felt it when you fell.

Solipsism of Females is exactly one of those “gravity” concepts. Men intuitively know it exists. Yes, solipsism was a new word for me, but it was one of those “aha” moments that can likely lead to one of those “high five” experiences she details. It even exists in the culture in the form of “it is all about me” moments that men experience with women. I never questioned that it exists, it needs few examples. I have enough personal examples already to grasp the concept.

It is said that “Belief comes first; explanation comes later”. Ok, fine, many men want to believe the worst about women today. But I ask “Why?”. I know why and the question is a rhetorical question. But I would hope that maybe some day in the face of all the hate and animosity that is beginning to brew from men towards women that they might begin to ask “Why?”

But Solipsism predicts they will not.

47. David Collard says:

September 19, 2012 at 5:17 am

Opus, Roissy had a funny line about a women’s circle jerk, involving rubbing and frantic pelvic thrusting. Maybe Susan could join one.

48. David Collard says:

September 19, 2012 at 5:21 am

Mark, most advances in social science are about naming something so that it can be identified. It is pattern-spotting. If a new term sticks, it probably reflects reality. Terms like hypergamy, Team Woman, female solipsism, Red Pill, and so on will continue to be useful as long as they reflect reality.

49. empathologicalism says:

September 19, 2012 at 5:32 am

Women reject things with some version of the following line:
“Thats not true, my sister and 2 of my friends are divorced and none of those are frivolous”
That is both solipsism/logical fallacy generally.

Smoking is bad for you
No, that’s not true, my uncle smoked 4 packs a day and lived healthily until he was 95

Most people are right handed
Not true, I have 2 left handed brothers

These are silliness run amok, they display an utter inability to communicate in a group about things outside the group.

Solipsism is narcissism is solipsism. All who are solipsistic are narcissistic, the converse is not, however, necessarily true.

50. greyghost says:

September 19, 2012 at 5:44 am

This reminds me of Starviolet “I need to see the evidence” and “the average child support is 5 dollars” etc etc.
Sunshinemary
Solipsism is normal and natural. Due to civilization and society it is kept in check. It is hard to be christian and solipstic. The whole idea of feminism was to remove all checks on natural female tendencies “being true to herself” so we have feral women we have today. It is normal and always has been what is different is society has made it part of civilization through the female vote. Feral and civilised does not go together. One of the things done was to change the christian church to churchianity,churchian and solipstic now they do go together. What behavior we see from women today is purely based on her self interest and not from any empathy even for children”I wouldn’t what any one to think I wasn’t a good mother” You can take that to the bank. Have faith christian men a woman for selfish reasons wants to label herself as christian will selfishly behave as a christian if she is churchian and will be kicked out of the christian church for it.
Once game or the nature of women is truely understood civilised society can then be a place to keep that in check. The big fear is it may take a real civil war with real death and destruction. (the web site here is bad but you can get a good idea of what civil unrest and war looks like http://theync.com/warning.php?redirect=)

51. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

September 19, 2012 at 6:47 am

I think Dalrock’s work above is a more visible example of what is at the root of the manosphere’s charge that women are solipsistic.

Women judge and value men and other women for their utility, for the role they can play or work they can contribute to their world.

It is their world. How does this person fit into their world?

The PUA community see this phenomenon and talk about “qualification.” The MGTOW see this and say, “I have value to myself, thank you very much.” The MRM community says, “Tell us something we don’t know.” When a person cannot truly empathize with others, she views the people and the world around her as extensions of her ego. As Dalrock noted, every conversation oviously involves her on a personal level.

That said, it’s not as if men are incapable of the same mental deception. However, the roles society placed on men (guard, laborer, cannon fodder) went a long way to culturing away any thought that men are snowflakes.

52. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

September 19, 2012 at 7:05 am

I think Bob Wallace raised a great point about the definition, but I think Alpha Mission does a better job of clarifying the distinction.

Narcissism, From DSM-IV:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
Requires excessive admiration
Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
Shows arrogant, haughty behavior or attitudes.
————————
Bob, nowhere in there is how they perceive the outside the outside world, in the sense of having a warped perception. It shows the warping is the value of the individual in comparison to a world (that the narcissist may be viewing as it actually is).
I think Alpha has a point when he mentions that women may see themselves as flawed, but still think the world owes them perfection. They will say, “I’m a mess, but I deserve the best!” A narcissist will not have that type/level of self-doubt. Really, his definition doesn’t re-define narcissism and provides a succinct distinction between the two.

53. sunshinemary says:

September 19, 2012 at 7:37 am

greyghost wrote:

Solipsism is normal and natural. Due to civilization and society it is kept in check. It is hard to be christian and solipstic. The whole idea of feminism was to remove all checks on natural female tendencies “being true to herself” so we have feral women we have today. It is normal and always has been what is different is society has made it part of civilization through the female vote. Feral and civilised does not go together.

I would tend to agree with you here ‘though I’ve no data to back it up. My subjective assessment is that women have a certain degree of inborn solipsism (whether this is because God created us this way or because of the fallen nature of humanity, I don’t know). I wrote here once before that I have to make a conscious effort to consider my husband’s point of view and preferences – it’s not my default setting to do so (I got criticized for saying so, but I’m not concerned with making people like me; what I’m interested in is trying to get at the truth of the matter). However, it makes sense that a civilized society reins in the worst tendencies of its citizens. Since women’s extreme self-centeredness is no longer punished, it’s grown like a cancerous tumor.

54. imnobody says:

September 19, 2012 at 7:42 am

Well, of course, there is this solipsism, narcisism, you name it.

I can’t count the times some poster in the manosphere says: “Women are X” and a women appears saying: “No. It’s not true. I’m not like that and my friends aren’t either”. I feel like screaming at them: “We are talking about women in general. We are not talking about you, you f*cking narcissist”.

Another occasion where narcissism is evident is when women accept theories depending on whether they like these theories or not. Susan Walsh is a living proof. She accepts whatever tenets of the manosphere she likes without proof. But, when she doesn’t like a tenet, she demands complete scientific proof. Even if there is scientific proof, she refuses to accept it (We have seen this in her discussions with Dalrock). This way, she can build the ideology she likes, accepting what she wants and rejecting what she wants.

A man reasons like that:

“The world is X. I don’t like it but it is the ugly truth”.

A women reasons like that:

“I don’t like the world is X so it isn’t. There is no proof about that and if there is a proof, it is faulty”

55. Laguna Beach Fogey says:

September 19, 2012 at 7:46 am

“The big fear is it may take a real civil war with real death and destruction.”

Actually, for some of us, it is a big hope.

56. Badger says:

September 19, 2012 at 7:49 am

Closely related to solipsism is projection; solipsism is giving undue primacy to your own perspective and interest. Projection is attempting to give attention to another person’s perspective/interest, but substituting your own perspective and value system and thus assuming that their brain is the same as yours.

One classic blue-pill projection is a woman telling a man he’s “relationship material,” thinking he’ll see that as some kind of superlative compliment. This is what’s going on when women tell men “oh you’re such a great guy, you’ll make some lucky woman [not me] so happy!”

Men don’t want/need to be judged “relationship material,” they want (and need) to be judged to be bangable. Women think that the man they’ve judged relationship material is higher value than the man they had a short-lived but wild sexual fling with, but in point of fact, the man she had quick sex with was higher value because the cost of entry she established was lower and thus his intrinsic value was sky-high.

Women need to understand how men feel about this (yes feel, it’s a visceral thought process): sexual access is the highest compliment you can give a man. The idea that “well you get MORE of me if I give you relationship value” is just projection from what women want men to give them (tingles + couply comfort).

57. sunshinemary says:

September 19, 2012 at 7:49 am

imnobody, Another way that a woman reasons is to say, “Well maybe the world is like that, but it SHOULDN’T be. We must change everything to accommodate me.”

58. imnobody says:

September 19, 2012 at 7:59 am

@sunshinemary

A question about female solipsism – for the moment, let us accept that women are at this time quite solipsistic. Why are they so? Is this a modern tendency born of the self-esteem movement? Is it another evil consequence of feminism? Is it how God (or evolution if you prefer) created women?

It’s a mixture of everything. The fact that there is a excess of men (you could kill half of the male population and all women will still be able to reproduce) makes women solipsistic. I have seen this in Europe (where I am from) and Latin America (where I live). Women don’t usually give a damn about things that don’t affect them.

However, a thing is being solipsistic and another thing is being insanely solipsistic. In the States women are the latter. Two centuries of pedestalization in the American culture and religion and forty years of American feminism have made that most American women think they are the center of the Universe and that they sh*t gold. You don’t see this in other parts of the world.

If it’s the last one, then we should just note that women are hard-wired this way without getting upset about it (“It is what it is” – one of my least favorite sayings, but maybe it fits here). If it’s one of the first two, then it’s worth getting in a bother about.

Yes, we can say the same about men being promiscuous and polygamous. We are hard-wired this way so please stop complaining when we are adulterous. There’s nothing to be upset about: after all, we are hard-wired to want new pussy.

59. Cane Caldo says:

September 19, 2012 at 8:00 am

@RTP

Women judge and value men and other women for their utility, for the role they can play or work they can contribute to their world.

Women are prone (heh) to this position by design. I think it is supposed to inform them of

1) How much they depend on men, and God. Their safety and even existence depends upon both.
2) Where and how they can fulfill their role as helper.

Sin mangles all this, though, and they’ve largely lost their ability to see their dependence, and their desire to fulfill any role they do not personally find pleasure in.

It’s a good point that women judge both men and women from this perspective. Men judge others not by utility, but by accomplishment. Very different.

60. Pingback: We Hold This Solipsism as Self-Evident «Things that We have Heard and Known

61. imnobody says:

September 19, 2012 at 8:04 am

Sorry for the bad markup. Second and third paragraph should NOT be in italics.
@sunshinemary

Another way that a woman reasons is to say, “Well maybe the world is like that, but it SHOULDN’T be. We must change everything to accommodate me.”

Agreed. I have seen this around the world. But there is a difference:

- In other parts of the world women complain (men can also complain, for example, about their boss). But this complaining remains in private discussion.

- In America, once women complain about anything, men rush to change the whole society in order to please them (which is an impossible task).

It seems to me that American men have Mommy issues. The deference with which treat American women is not normal. This is the product of two centuries of pedestalization. American women are this way because men let them be this way.

62. Rollo Tomassi says:

September 19, 2012 at 8:09 am

This was too good not to share here. Pulled this from Vox’s comments:

“Women are always the worst victims of war. Women lose their husbands, sons to combat.” –Hillary Clinton

Men lose their lives, but women are the worst victims. Do you seriously need more evidence for the innate mental fragility of women?

Aunt Giggles has never been an authority on anything. All she wants to be is the girl in the center of the manosphere’s bukkake video.

63. sunshinemary says:

September 19, 2012 at 8:11 am

ssm wrote: If it’s the last one, then we should just note that women are hard-wired this way without getting upset about it (“It is what it is” – one of my least favorite sayings, but maybe it fits here). If it’s one of the first two, then it’s worth getting in a bother about.

imnobody responded: Yes, we can say the same about men being promiscuous and polygamous. We are hard-wired this way so please stop complaining when we are adulterous. There’s nothing to be upset about: after all, we are hard-wired to want new pussy.

My comment was poorly worded – my apologies. I didn’t mean that we shouldn’t get upset about it in the sense of not wanting to do something about it. What I meant was we should have a dispassionate discussion about how to rein the tendency in. Perhaps women are hard-wired to be self-centered in the same way that men are hard-wired to seek mating opportunities with as many females as possible; if so, we needn’t be emotionally upset about these traits, but rather just recognize that they are bad for a healthy society and that we must curb the expression of these traits.

64. imnobody says:

September 19, 2012 at 8:16 am

@Rollo Tomassi

Examples abound. I remember an article bemoaning the fact that old women cannot have choice in romantic partners because men die younger. The article was called “The other gender gap”.

Isabel Allende praised women in a TEDtalk telling that they were victims. She put the example of an African woman who saw her husband die because of war. They killed the husband before her eyes. It never dawned on Ms. Allende that the husband had had it worse. Go figure

65. imnobody says:

September 19, 2012 at 8:22 am

@sunshinemary

Yes, I agree. A dispassionate discussion is the best. My comment is not about you, in fact. I think the new development in gender situation in America will be using evolutionary psychology to benefit women.

The equality myth has outlived its usefulness. Expect hearing arguments like that the following years:

- Of course, we need alimony and child support. We are the gender that it’s more biologically valuable. In all animal species, the male bring resources to the female so why shouldn’t it be this way with humans?

- It’s not my fault that I banged with the boss: it’s the hypergamy is hard-wired in me.

Meanwhile, men would be insulted for following their biological instincts. “All men are dogs. They are always thinking about the same”

66. David Collard says:

September 19, 2012 at 8:22 am

“It seems to me that American men have Mommy issues. The deference with which [they] treat American women is not normal. This is the product of two centuries of pedestalization. American women are this way because men let them be this way.”

Very obvious and disturbing to outsiders.

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